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Matt Atterbury

Clubby downforce?

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Just wondering if any one know this? 
 

From my research I understand the clubsport spoilers where not just slapped on! The M Division designed the rear spoiler to work in conjunction with the front spoilers and a special engine undertry, I have checked the undertry and find it is stamped with CS and it’s special order from bmw so I would say that sort of confirms it’s, but I cannot find anywhere the downforce figures.

 

over on M3 cutters they say that the e46 has 100 lb of lift on the rear

The M3/M Sport rear spoiler gives a remarkable 50lb of downforce 

The M3 csl duck tail gives 75lb of downforce 

The Clubby I just don’t know and that’s where my problem lies lol, I cannot know the downforce of cars I don’t own but not know the one about the car I’ve had for 15 years. Please help my brain cannot cope it’s a rabbit hole I wish I left alone lol.

Edited by Matt Atterbury

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I heard the CS spoiler gives more downforce than an F1 car at 150mph!! 🤐 🤣

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Front splitters and undertray will do next to nothing for actual downforce. Undertray isn't all that different from a normal msport undertray and the splitters are held on with a few screws to the bumper.

Rear spoiler may create some more downforce but i reckon it was aimed more for it's looks as opposed to functionality as a clubsport and normal Msport have very little differences across the entire car.

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Yep the front splitters take the same form as the sport bumper, just makes them a little sharper. Probably a 1% difference to stock themselves.

The standard undertray is pretty flat as it is so don't think it makes any difference at all. May clean up drag a little.

Rear spoiler sits further up, yes. But depends entirely on angle. Considering there's no increase in front downforce why would you want more on the rear? To pick up the front end? I'm sure there's a little more considering air can go under the wing too but won't be much and i'm sure you wont feel it at all.

The only real difference between an M Sport and the Clubsport is this - you look like a wannabe boy racer driving the clubsport! 🤣

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Well momo you’re points are definitely a one sided view of the clubby, but don’t seem to help me answer my question!

my problem is not if someone else doesn’t like them bits or doesn’t believe m division made them functional it’s just trying to find out how much downforce they give, if I wanted negative responses I would just turn and ask my teenager thanks.

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1 hour ago, Matt Atterbury said:

Well momo you’re points are definitely a one sided view of the clubby, but don’t seem to help me answer my question!

my problem is not if someone else doesn’t like them bits or doesn’t believe m division made them functional it’s just trying to find out how much downforce they give, if I wanted negative responses I would just turn and ask my teenager thanks.

It would most likely be the same as the standard Msport and M3 boot spoiler so not to unbalance the car.

You would need more downforce on the front to need more at the back. 

It was just dressed up to look more racey/sporty and more individual.

Clubsports of todays cars however are a lot different.

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3 hours ago, R11CH said:

It would most likely be the same as the standard Msport and M3 boot spoiler so not to unbalance the car.

You would need more downforce on the front to need more at the back. 

It was just dressed up to look more racey/sporty and more individual.

Clubsports of todays cars however are a lot different.

I know it was not just for show like everyone thinks, but that’s totally different rabbit hole I just don’t want here.

I am just looking for anyone that knows what downforce it’s got that’s all, and I get what you’re saying about today’s clubsports being different, I also understand that a lot of the community does not like the clubby much but each to there own. 

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11 hours ago, Matt Atterbury said:

Well momo you’re points are definitely a one sided view of the clubby, but don’t seem to help me answer my question!

my problem is not if someone else doesn’t like them bits or doesn’t believe m division made them functional it’s just trying to find out how much downforce they give, if I wanted negative responses I would just turn and ask my teenager thanks.

Apart from the last line, what was one-sided about my view?

Jeez.

Considering your ar$ey reply to my genuine comment has p*ssed me off i'll add this - maybe if you don't like people's opinions when they differ to your (not "you're", btw..) own, stay off the internet!

Here's a final thought - maybe if after 18 years there's still no information about downforce on the wing, it's because it really IS negligible. Maybe it was only ever meant to be for aesthetic reasons so even the manufacturer thought it's not worth investigating. Something that us LONG TIME E46 enthusiasts already know.. ID10T.

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2 hours ago, momo said:

Apart from the last line, what was one-sided about my view?

Jeez.

Considering your ar$ey reply to my genuine comment has p*ssed me off i'll add this - maybe if you don't like people's opinions when they differ to your (not "you're", btw..) own, stay off the internet!

Here's a final thought - maybe if after 18 years there's still no information about downforce on the wing, it's because it really IS negligible. Maybe it was only ever meant to be for aesthetic reasons so even the manufacturer thought it's not worth investigating. Something that us LONG TIME E46 enthusiasts already know.. ID10T.

I love how the place just produces instant nobs. It has nothing to do with how you’re opinion differs, as that was not being asked for! you just saw other opportunity to stamp on another clubby owner. 
plus just because you think you are a LONG TIME E46 enthusiast does not mean you know everything, especially as you’re mind dismisses anything you’re brain does not like or maybe comprehend who knows?

Edited by Matt Atterbury

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let’s just relax, it’s a funny looking spoiler with some interesting wheels. no one is stamping on you because you own a CS. It’s a strange question which was bound to attract opinion comments. Have you considered contacting BMW in Germany who may have some kind of technical data archives they can reference? 

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6 hours ago, Matt Atterbury said:

I love how the place just produces instant nobs. It has nothing to do with how you’re opinion differs, as that was not being asked for! you just saw other opportunity to stamp on another clubby owner. 
plus just because you think you are a LONG TIME E46 enthusiast does not mean you know everything, especially as you’re mind dismisses anything you’re brain does not like or maybe comprehend who knows?

It's "YOUR", not "YOU'RE"! Cretin..

Dumb as door nails but talks about how others can't comprehend simple info. Right!

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15 hours ago, Matt Atterbury said:

I know it was not just for show like everyone thinks, but that’s totally different rabbit hole I just don’t want here.

I am just looking for anyone that knows what downforce it’s got that’s all, and I get what you’re saying about today’s clubsports being different, I also understand that a lot of the community does not like the clubby much but each to there own. 

I actually have clubsport front splitters on mine and actually like the clubsport but it's in no way different from a Msport other than a few bolt on parts unfortunately.

Maybe the source that told you bmw didn't just bolt the spoiler on for aesthetics reasons would know.

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13 minutes ago, R11CH said:

I actually have clubsport front splitters on mine and actually like the clubsport but it's in no way different from a Msport other than a few bolt on parts unfortunately.

Maybe the source that told you bmw didn't just bolt the spoiler on for aesthetics reasons would know.

I think you may be right I will drop bmw an email, I believe they do answer these questions, I just came across a bloody post about downforce and my brain then wanted to know what and if the clubby did anything, I also find it had to believe that it’s just bolt on as the cost just to work out that you need a thinner undertray plus retooling costs for a limited run item just would not make sense.

When I get a response I will fill you in.

 

 

 

 

  

 

Edited by Matt Atterbury

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cvYjVC1.gif


Can I ask, why do you need to know? Do you do trackdays / are you a racing driver? If I was wanting to know the information you asked for, I would've contacted BMW AG 15 years ago when that info would've been more forthcoming. Internet forums wouldn't even be on my radar of places to ask that type of question as people are more likely to post b******t than actual facts. If you had found a forum post stating the CS has 20 points of extra downforce from the rear wing alone, would you have believed it and slept easier at night? 

Do we believe BMW put in extra hours in the wind tunnel and CFD simulations to improve the lap times of a humble 330? That would mean a serious amount of R&D. They would have to consider Bernoulli's Principle; boundary layers, laminar flow, turbulent flow, vortices, coanda effect, air separation etc etc. If we assume the front splitters add downforce, why did the skirts remain unchanged? Rear 'diffuser' also remained the same. The front is where the air is controlled from and affects the entire car. Just an example, canards can be 'considered' to create vortices to produce a barrier along the side of a car and can stop high pressure air entering low pressure zones such as the underbody = more downforce. 

Ask BMW AG about the drag coefficient of all 3 Series coupes (including M3 and CSL variants) and lap times for the stock 330Ci and Clubsport. If they give you this info we can have another chat :P

p.s. ''lift'' can be positive and negative

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28 minutes ago, Schumacher said:

cvYjVC1.gif


Can I ask, why do you need to know? Do you do trackdays / are you a racing driver? If I was wanting to know the information you asked for, I would've contacted BMW AG 15 years ago when that info would've been more forthcoming. Internet forums wouldn't even be on my radar of places to ask that type of question as people are more likely to post b******t than actual facts. If you had found a forum post stating the CS has 20 points of extra downforce from the rear wing alone, would you have believed it and slept easier at night? 

Do we believe BMW put in extra hours in the wind tunnel and CFD simulations to improve the lap times of a humble 330? That would mean a serious amount of R&D. They would have to consider Bernoulli's Principle; boundary layers, laminar flow, turbulent flow, vortices, coanda effect, air separation etc etc. If we assume the front splitters add downforce, why did the skirts remain unchanged? Rear 'diffuser' also remained the same. The front is where the air is controlled from and affects the entire car. Just an example, canards can be 'considered' to create vortices to produce a barrier along the side of a car and can stop high pressure air entering low pressure zones such as the underbody = more downforce. 

Ask BMW AG about the drag coefficient of all 3 Series coupes (including M3 and CSL variants) and lap times for the stock 330Ci and Clubsport. If they give you this info we can have another chat :P

p.s. ''lift'' can be positive and negative

As I said I just came across a post that was talking about the downforce on e46 models and started reading as you do, by the end I realised I now new more about the other e46 range on this point than my own car, so stupid me went down the rabbit hole and asked a question, O Boy wish I had left that dam rabbit alone now.

 

I will email BMW and see what info they have, if I get a response I will follow up i feel it’s deserved.

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Fair enough but I'll ask again, are you a racing driver? Do you understand aerodynamics/fluid mechanics? You need to be doing silly speeds to generate downforce and let's face it, downforce or not, given our crappy roads and speed limits, you won't notice a thing.

 

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