n1k_ns Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) True but lets be honest if BMW didn't get a penny from us they wouldn't care. They probably make bugger all profit from the sale of spares. The point is the makers of aftermarket parts do care because the sales of part is thier core business. Like I said, there is a big difference between the impact of relipcas on BMW and aftermarket parts developers/suppliers. The fact is people don't have a problem with it because all they care about is getting the bits they want. They will care when the aftermarket parts scene dies because the money is all going to companies who don't do any product developement. The OP argument is null and void in this case though, because Jorge (The OP) said he would never buy replica wheels and didn't agree with others doing so, he would only buy genuine Aftermarket parts to support the Genuine companies. But on his e46 Jorge has only ever bought used alloy wheels, so in that respect it makes no difference if they are genuine or not. The manufacturer doesnt see any benefit either way. And as said before, why would you spend £4000 on a set of rims for a ten year old car when you can buy identical looking rims for £500 that in the 'real world' 99% of people dont know or give a s**t if they are real or not? What are the 95% of people who cant afford £4000 on a set of rims to do? Jorge lives with his parents and is 19 or 20 years old. If we all lived at home we'd be on porsche911zone.com instead of here. I cant speak for anyone else, but I'm not going to go without mods just to feel all warm and gooey inside that I am supporting a wheel manufacturer. Edited May 20, 2011 by n1k_ns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz 330 Cs Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 (edited) If we all lived at home we'd be on porsche911zone.com instead of here. Oh my God hell yeah ! Edited May 21, 2011 by Daz 330 Clubsport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassa-d Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Oh my God hell yeah ! Hmmmm wonder if mum will let me move back!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz 330 Cs Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 That 911 is just pure sex ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I remember when I got married I calculated that for the money I paid for my wedding, house and various other bits I could've bought myself a Porsche 997 GT3.. Im sure I did the right thing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 You must have had an epic wedding! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/07-PORSCHE-911-GT3-997-CLUBSPORT-PACK-9000-MILES-/110690572542?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19c5ac18fe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisCooper Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 (edited) Hi all I just wanted to add some perspectives from another few angles. There is quite a bit of misinformation throughout this thread and some misjudged conclusions! My background is Financial IT covering one person small businesses, right up to sitting in Canary Wharf at some of the largest Investment Banks in the world and also individual personal finance, so I have a pretty good idea from being a consumer like most members here too as I'm one as well! Business interests also include working with my brother and that was being involved with importing from the Far East, products related to the automotive industry. My current venture is again importing but from the USA and other G8/G20 countries and part of my Research as well as development of products I'm actually manufacturing, I've spoken to every level of enthusiast and manufacturers. Some of you guys know me personally as I like to be involved with meets and gatherings to talk all things BMW, other's I have contact with via the forum etc. I also speak to local suppliers that many of you guys will use too, I've had meetings with manufacturers based in the UK and spoken to others based abroad. I've visited the big trade fairs in SEMA Las Vegas and spoken directly to manufacturers who are responsible for some of the products we all love. I'm not saying I know everything, I don't - and as a consumer, I of course have my own preferences. However, to appeal to many different potential customers I wish to attract for the products I've thought up, developed and manufactured, as well as ones that are already available, I like to conduct my own evaluations to make sure things like quality and construction as well as professionalism meet with what I think mine and many of you guys standards would be. I've mentioned it before and as per this thread, it can be bit of a polarising topic as many people have different views! A BMW is a high quality, highly engineered product, a result of extensive testing and research and development. This all costs serious amounts of money and investment and each car sold when new, helps the company progress, be profitable and continue to develop products that we as consumers wish to buy. Quality levels are high, the actual manufacturers of the parts themselves must meet criteria set by BMW. This ensures parts last a long time, provide the level of performance they were designed and researched for. Over time, of course things may fail or wear out, even genuine products. Over time, cars wil drop into the 2nd hand market - it's just the way things are and we all know, values drop. Sometimes the same manufacturer of a genuine part will make a part that's the 'same' but without the BMW stamp/badge and charge a lower price. when this happens, it helps people continue running their cars,the factory makes another revenue channel. Those parts that are known like this continue to get good reviews. However, that same factory or even another one, will make the 'same' part but charge considerably less. This is because the level of quality is reduced to X% - this may mean a manufacturing reduction, it could be a slightly lower grade material purchased to make the part, less QA or slightly lower tolerances. The next stage is perhaps the same but more of a lower quality level and perhaps the lowest level is where minimum standards are only just exceeded. Anything less than those standards which is made, is likely only to be sold in countries that don't have as high level minimum standards. Focussing on car parts in this topic which is wheels, and styling products mainly, i've spoken to quite a lot of wheel manufacturers. Personally, I've always had high quality made, branded wheels on all my BMW's since 1990. All my E30's had wheels like this, bought new or second hand if I saw them in exchange and mart or autotrader or loot printed publications! yes, there was once a time where there was no internet ! I had a set of Replica type 2 17 inch AC Schnitzer wheels that came out of Germany in 1997 and I had no issues - however I always park one foot away from kerbs! That car got sold (wish I kept them - they were E30 fitment and I had one of 3 sets in the UK at the time!) and I went to a E34 525i Sport. I got offered a good price for the genuine Throwing stars and on went a set of Replica Type 2 ACS. A few months later at 30 mph on a local road I had to stop and saw that the wheel had cracked all the way round on the inside - no kerbing or potholes etc! - so I thought I'm not having that, what if it happened at motorway speeds? - so I bit the bullet and bought a set of genune ACS type 3 18 inch in mid 1998 - £2400 back then and tyres were around £230-250 each ! Good Year Eagle F1's - when those went on, wow! the jump in quality, finish and fitment being spot on was worth it, even though I was still smarting from the wallet bash! It's been genuine ever since. Over the 'noughties' with the increase of world wide trade and other economic drivers, replica wheels (and parts) made an impact. The UK's hunger for cheap goods ballooned (in all sorts of other markets too) and the resulting lower quality products were deemed acceptable for the price paid. For me, wheels are a safety related part on my car, I'm not willing to compromise safety for the sakes of visual looks - I want both - especially after that crack in the replica's I used to have. Production methods have increased in quality for replica's over recent years, I have no doubt of that, but it's not by 'much' and, especially from the far east, some factories can churn out wheels so quickly that by the time the paint has dried, they've upped and moved the equipment and will be a factory making table lamps - meaning it's hard to come back to them if the wheels are as strong as chocolate! Other factories will make their wheels to a better quality level and those will make their way to Western Markets. then theres others who will apply a brand name and increase quality by using better factories and over the last couple years, I noticed a few mentions that those seem to be factories that are based in Taiwan ... whilst China still makes the lowest quality items. Many UK based enthusiasts, with the cost of living in other areas of life, don't want to spend the £1500- 2K plus that a proper, high quality wheel set costs. It's a gamble to see if the replica's bought are indeed higher quality ones, as there's no channel back to claim if things go wrong. UK retailing law says that dealers/businesses have a responsibility, but there's still negative aspects - say if you just need a single wheel etc. Safety concerns are pushed to the side when the price seems nice at £500-600 for a set of wheels that only 'look' like the genuine article. By buying 2nd hand genuine wheels to my mind is still supporting the work, R&D, testing and reputation of quality products. Buying a new set of replica wheels funds the sector which can't be bothered to do that and leeches off other's hard work. The compromises are to safety, construction, finish and longetivity. The word 'Replica' is just that, an imitation of the genuine article, made at reduced quality levels usually! the longer term perspective is that the replica will wear out/go wrong/ not last as long as the original, which really fits in with the saying 'buy cheap buy twice' - that said, if in the gamble of a replica wheel or styling product etc, you just happen to get a piece that was made by a better replica manufacturer, there are people who've had no issue with them. It all really depends where your perceptions are and the amount of compromise to your principles you are willing to make - to me, I'd buy a replica part so long it isn't a safety essential part of the car. I have a replica front bumper and roof tip spoiler on my Touring. My wheels, brakes components, suspension springs, fuel pumps, are all either genuine parts or the well reputable branded cheaper solutions. the compromise that my bumper is 5mm off size to the genuine article, and perhaps a slightly made quicker than the genuine with the same material - which I don't mind. When it comes to the hotly discussed wheels, I'll personally never put replica's on. At the other end of the scale, when you see just what goes into producing the higher end wheels, production methods and technologies there's no way the 'replica' guys would ever invest in any machinery to do the same as it costs too much! - BBS who are very well known, derive their knowledge from motor racing where quality levels are higher than for road cars. Their very popular LM style wheel is made using a forging process and thus, as a more expensive manufacturing method, cost around £3000-3500 for those wheels. The work behind them is extensive. Having them replicated cheaply is nothing short of galling for the people who worked on BBS wheels, as the only thing the replica's share is perhaps 75-90% of the 'looks' only. The argument that companies are profiteering, or, prices are too high for genuine products has no real substance. Quality costs money. There is no way or even reason for the companies who invested the substantial amounts developing products to lower their prices for a small sector of the market, if you owned a company, would you lower your prices by 50% just because some people don't want to pay your usual pricing? no you wouldn't, else you'd go out of business quite quickly! The UK is a difficult market, as a consumer market, the UK wants to have high quality, but aren't willing to to pay the price for it - hence a big sector of the market with replica goods in many industries. There is more to it of course, and beyond the scope of posting here - I'd probably need a small book! I've been watching the F1 qualifying so apologies for the long post and its content structure! ... feedback welcome as it also helps me with my research Cheers, Dennis! Edited May 21, 2011 by DennisCooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubsport_chris Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Great informed post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil2575 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 The OP argument is null and void in this case though, because Jorge (The OP) said he would never buy replica wheels and didn't agree with others doing so, he would only buy genuine Aftermarket parts to support the Genuine companies. But on his e46 Jorge has only ever bought used alloy wheels, so in that respect it makes no difference if they are genuine or not. The manufacturer doesnt see any benefit either way. Whether Jorge is a hypocite or not is neither here nor there. It does not change the fact that buying replicas hurts the genuiine parts market. Dennis' post is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) You must have had an epic wedding! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/07-PORSCHE-911-GT3-997-CLUBSPORT-PACK-9000-MILES-/110690572542?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19c5ac18fe Yip! lol. The wedding itself wasn't where I spent the most. To be fair it was buying the house we live in now so we don't have to have a ridiculous mortgage, kitting it out etc.. Maybe second was the bloody gifts you have to buy for the wedding.. Happy days! lol DennisCooper - Agree with you there matey! Problem is (in this country at least) while there's the enthusiasts out there who are willing to pay the money for the quality, there's way more people out there who just want a set of wheels that look good but don't want to pay more than say £600. 'tis a shame indeed but I can't see it stopping anytime soon.. Edited May 22, 2011 by momo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 As Pointed out in my Photo Post that some of you may have seen, yeh i do Run Replica 19" csl Wheels and a damn good replica if you ask me, without saying or taking them off, no one would know, but i have no reason to lie and say i have genuine ones when i dont.... Im not cheap as i could have easily bought a Genuine set, but unfortunatly as someone else has stated the offset would be wrong for a normal 3 series and wouldnt fit. Obviously there are going to be some less well manufactured products with replica's, but like some one else has also said, you get what you pay for and if your happy with that, its End of Story. We all have our own Opinion, so i personally dont have anything against jorge for Airing his Disrepute over Replica products, just something he feels strongly about. I feel strongly that most of the VAG scene looks sh*t like the supposed RAT look, now what is that about, why on earth people like this i have no idea and need there head testing and all this serious negative Camber and having to change tyres once a month (yeh clever one that) or cant drive there car due to the excessive camber is stupid. But thats another discussion, just a point im trying to get across. We all have likes and dislikes, but this world has alot more important things to worry about. So lets all Go have a beer and chill out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wash Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I think it's justifiable to buy something like CSL replicas since genuine CSLs are incredibly expensive and you'll need to modify your car for them to fit and for that reason alone, I think it's okay to buy something like CSL replicas.However I don't believe in making your car something it's not, especially like adding M badges everywhere and all that crap. If you have an M3, sure, you can add M badges everywhere (even though they look ugly), or adding crappy Need for Speed spoilers, blah blah. Keeping your car as OEM as possible is great but sometimes your circumstances just don't allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymm Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Hmmm I voted "Yes, but of OEM parts only" but you´ll have to scrub that vote as I had forgot that I have put bezzel rings(e-bay) and AE´s on my car I have also a non oem battery on my car (it is a top brand (Varta)but half the price and came with a 5 year g) plus no thinking about it I have CF roundels (all 7) that came from e-bay thinking more my coolant isn´t BMW either but I was advised from the parts guys in BMW not to buy the BMW stuff as it is no different to some other coolants on the market he even told me which brands I could use, and them brands are the same brands as the guys in the workshop use soo please knock 1 vote off!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 soo please knock 1 vote off!!!! Done If you'd like your vote added to another option let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymm Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Done If you'd like your vote added to another option let me know Cheers Gaz I would like another option or 2 on the list I will and have bought Reps but not something that is a real safety issue I have reps on my car because they don´t make a Gen part ie Angel eyes I think others have more ideas on more options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clubsport_chris Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Cheers Gaz I would like another option or 2 on the list I will and have bought Reps but not something that is a real safety issue I have reps on my car because they don´t make a Gen part ie Angel eyes I think others have more ideas on more options So the angel eyes are not reps as they don't make them for the e46 thus not really being a replica but aftermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymm Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 So the angel eyes are not reps as they don't make them for the e46 thus not really being a replica but aftermarket. hmmm good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
