Jamie330d Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 Out of curiosity what's the max bhp achievable on the 186bhp m57 without spending a fortune? I.e Fmic, map ect, also what's the difference between the 204bhp engine and the 186? I've got a 186 fitted and a complete 204 lying here spare. Is the difference only the size of the turbo? Size of inlet manifold? I know on 523, 525, 528 e39s it is only the inlet manifold the changes the bhp. Thanks for any info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 Slightly less capacity, different turbo & injectors, also a more basic ECU But still a great engine though, my previous 330d was a 184bhp (2.9) with a remap, which was running around 230bhp & 500Nm, with additional mods (decat, EGR, etc) you'd be able to go higher, but they are not as tuneable as the later 204bhp (3.0) engine. The engine characteristics are different though, the 2.9 has more low end grunt then runs out of puff, whereas the 3.0 pulls more the higher you rev it, both are quick though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 As above but A standard remap on a 184bhp engine will get to around the 230bhp mark. A standard remap on a 204bhp engine will get to around the 250bhp mark. The difference is should you want more - the 184bhp engine is already pretty close to it's ultimate limit. The 204bhp engine has been tuned (although disputed) to over 300bhp in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) So the 204 is bored out? If I put the 204bhp turbo, 204bhp injectors front mount and map what's realistically achievable? The stuffs all lying here anyway, could change the engine in a couple days realistically without any hassle but only if its going to be worth it. Should say my 186 already has a turbo decat and stainless from cat back, is EGR delete worth it? Also has K&N Edited April 17, 2013 by Jamie330d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 the 184bhp is a 2.9 litre engine, the 204bhp is a 3.0 litre engine you can't just bolt bits from the 3.0 onto the 2.9 though, the turbo is electronically controlled on the 3.0 for a start and the injectors are bigger, so the ECU would need recalibrating to suit it's also not just a straight swap of fitting a 3.0 engine into a 2.9 car as the DDE (engine management) is different, someone else on here (jassi) is attempting to do this at the moment. with a remap, decat & EGR delete, you'd be looking at 250-260bhp from a 2.9 engine and you're not going to get much more as the turbo & injectors are close to their limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 (edited) Does the EGR delete make a big difference? My mate out one in his e36 2.5tds he said it just took longer to heat up and made no noticeable difference? I might just bang a map on mine and see how it does, I have a spare engine if it goes wrong, I've got ecu, wiring loom, steering column, keys ect so it may be transferable? Just not over night. Is 250 a safe map or at your own risk map? I do have spare diesel pumps but really don't want to destroy the ones I've got fitted now Edited April 17, 2013 by Jamie330d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 250bhp is pretty safe from a 204bhp engine I think. I know others who have pushed around 280bhp from a remap but then they start to get niggles unless other work is done. 250bhp is deffo safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerFish Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 with a remap, decat & EGR delete, you'd be looking at 250-260bhp from a 2.9 engine and you're not going to get much more as the turbo & injectors are close to their limits. I'd love to know what a bigger turbo would get on one of these (and injectors if needed). Aren't the clutches meant to be a weak point too? Although I don't know what the max. torque rating for them is though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 EGR delete alone won't make much difference, but there is less restriction, so will help flow at higher revs when mapped, plus there is no crap being fed back through the inlet manifold 250bhp on a 2.9 from just a remap is pushing it, but with other supporting mods (decat) it is ok, you'd see more like 270+bhp from a 3.0 with the same mods though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 17, 2013 Report Share Posted April 17, 2013 I'd love to know what a bigger turbo would get on one of these (and injectors if needed). Aren't the clutches meant to be a weak point too? Although I don't know what the max. torque rating for them is though. The sky is the limit really, hybrid Turbo & bigger injectors would mean 300+ As you have stated though, the clutch would die at this level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 Thanks for the info will phone the mapper today and see what the story is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0v0s Posted April 18, 2013 Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 The 2.9 m57 can be fitted with the gt2260v and the electronic control converted to a vac can. However, according to a European tuner, there was found to be something limiting the engine from producing power beyond 270 (may have been 290) iirc. Fuel pumps were changed, cams, a gt2260v turbo, 535d injectors, an m57n exhaust manifold etc etc - not sure if the head was modified too. Things like emp was measured to see if a limiting factor could be found... I'll try dig out the thread. It was interesting. if the head wasn't changed, I'm guessing the limitation lies here. Or maybe he was stumbling over a software limitation on the somewhat older 2.9 dde, which may have less tuneable parameters over an edc16 ecu? Either way, he gave up at that level. And I'd be inclined to trust his judgement. I think the m57n 3.0 should be able to hit 400bhp with the appropriate supporting mods. If outright power is on the agenda, drop in an om606 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 18, 2013 Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 Ah yes, 290bhp limit rings a bell for the 2.9 engine, the DDE is one of the limiting factors, this was a guy from Norway IIRC? the 3.0 engine has much more scope for tuning, but I for one will never got that far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 It's strange the tuning differences between the 186 2926cc and a 204 2993cc considering there's such little difference in the actual cc of the engine, apparently the head gasket is stronger and this is why there's a difference? Please confirm or deny if you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0v0s Posted April 18, 2013 Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 Yes Rich, that's the one. Where did you hear tham from Jamie? As said, it is likely to be a limitation in the older engine management (edc15 compared to edc16) or a physical difference in engine design such as the head. It will not be due to head gasket weakness. Strip away all the fancy electronics, and all we need to make a diesel fly is s**tloads of air and fuel injected in within a certain injection window. The big limitation with direct injection diesels is the injector nozzles for one, and in common rails - the technology so far limits how much fuel can be injected into that window. Its too slow. Not really a problem until lots of power is required. Hence why you see all the big American trucks strapping on a second high pressure pump.. So. I propose we go back to basics. ditch the electronics. Strap on a big fk off mechanical inline p-pump and make up an m-tdi m57n Rich_D, bungers and momo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 The engine capacitys I got from my car check, the headgasket was suggested by my mate as to why they would be different so thought I would throw it out there! I've not checked part number ect to see if this is actually the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 18, 2013 Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 It's strange the tuning differences between the 186 2926cc and a 204 2993cc considering there's such little difference in the actual cc of the engine, apparently the head gasket is stronger and this is why there's a difference? Please confirm or deny if you know? There's more too it than just a slight capacity increase though, they drive & even sound different, wierd I know, but I've owned both The head gasket is not a know weakness on either engine AFAIK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jassi Posted April 18, 2013 Report Share Posted April 18, 2013 it's also not just a straight swap of fitting a 3.0 engine into a 2.9 car as the DDE (engine management) is different, someone else on here (jassi) is attempting to do this at the moment. I did my research regarding the best power gains from the 184bhp and the best you will see is 230bhp were as the 204bhp B&w chiptune and Celtic tunning have quoted they can map to 270-280bhp with supporting mods such as hybrid turbo and a paddle clutch they can get in excess of 300bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 Yeah il be happy 230 can't be bothered changing the engine again and spending alot of money and time to not get a huge amount of extra bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 19, 2013 Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 You can get 230bhp from just a remap and K&N on the 2.9 engine, as that's what I had, with a decat I'd expect more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momo Posted April 19, 2013 Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 I think the m57n 3.0 should be able to hit 400bhp with the appropriate supporting mods. If outright power is on the agenda, drop in an om606 Fooooooook me I wanna see that! Gearbox will be ripped to shreds in no time but still, I wanna see an E46 diesel with 400bhp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 Ok, il update on what it's running once its done, thinking of using a place in Edinburgh but I believe they use generic maps even though they have rolling road set up, what the thoughts on a generic map as a pose to a live map? Also what kind of money have people paid for a generic or live map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonlpearce Posted April 19, 2013 Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 Your going to be looking in the region of £500 for a live map. What are the internals good for on the diesel engines? Surely there has to be a point where you will be running at their limits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie330d Posted April 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 It's suggested on here the 186 can do 240-250 max and the 204 can go significantly more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_D Posted April 19, 2013 Report Share Posted April 19, 2013 What are the internals good for on the diesel engines? Surely there has to be a point where you will be running at their limits... Someone will find out eventually, but there are plenty of people running close to 300bhp with 100k+ miles engines with no issues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
